Walraven // Forums // Thread 2626
Crafting Tree, allaryin, 2005-04-28 01:23:14
Ok. After having banged my head against this problem off and on for a few months, I think I have finally come to a decision on how to go about the new crafting tree (since we need recipes to support the new skills correctly).
Some of this information has been available on my idea pages for quite some time, but just to reiterate. Every crafting material will have a skill level at which it becomes available for use. There are a total of four tiers: novice, apprentice, journeyman, and master.
Right now, recipes are more along the lines of old RTS building requirements in stead of those that one would generally find in an RPG. For example:
knife - 1 wood, 2 iron
house - 3200 wood, 200 stone
Since neither of these objects go immediately from stacks of resources to finished product, it would be nice if we had intermediary crafting phases. These products would be the ones useful for practicing - you don't bang away at finished products, you practice on basics.
So, since copper is going to be the novice blacksmithing metal, here is my preliminary list of intermediary copper recipes (same list applies for most other metals):
ingot - ore
4 stud - ingot
2 spike - ingot
screw - spike
2 gear - ingot
sheet - 2 ingot
tube - sheet
2 foil - sheet
rod - ingot
buckle - rod
4 wire - rod
6 ring - wire
Then, in stead of requiring two copper ingots and one wood to make a knife, you might need an ingot, a stud, and a block of wood. A dagger might require two studs, or perhaps some rings for design, etc...
It makes coming up with the final recipes easier and more intuitive, and makes the practicing process more rewarding I think.
Example:
Under the current system, somebody who has 100 iron and a sufficient supply of wood who wanted to practice smithing with the knife recipe would be able to make 50 knives before they ran out of materials. That's 50 practices and a big stack of knives.
Under the proposed recipe tree, someone with 100 copper and plenty of wood could make... 80 knives (80 ingots + 20 ingots * 4 studs per ingot). That's 100 practices and a bigger stack of knives. And, if they didn't want to make the knives just yet, they could have made all 100 ingots into studs for an enormous stack of studs that would actually be useful for future crafting.
Some of this information has been available on my idea pages for quite some time, but just to reiterate. Every crafting material will have a skill level at which it becomes available for use. There are a total of four tiers: novice, apprentice, journeyman, and master.
Right now, recipes are more along the lines of old RTS building requirements in stead of those that one would generally find in an RPG. For example:
knife - 1 wood, 2 iron
house - 3200 wood, 200 stone
Since neither of these objects go immediately from stacks of resources to finished product, it would be nice if we had intermediary crafting phases. These products would be the ones useful for practicing - you don't bang away at finished products, you practice on basics.
So, since copper is going to be the novice blacksmithing metal, here is my preliminary list of intermediary copper recipes (same list applies for most other metals):
ingot - ore
4 stud - ingot
2 spike - ingot
screw - spike
2 gear - ingot
sheet - 2 ingot
tube - sheet
2 foil - sheet
rod - ingot
buckle - rod
4 wire - rod
6 ring - wire
Then, in stead of requiring two copper ingots and one wood to make a knife, you might need an ingot, a stud, and a block of wood. A dagger might require two studs, or perhaps some rings for design, etc...
It makes coming up with the final recipes easier and more intuitive, and makes the practicing process more rewarding I think.
Example:
Under the current system, somebody who has 100 iron and a sufficient supply of wood who wanted to practice smithing with the knife recipe would be able to make 50 knives before they ran out of materials. That's 50 practices and a big stack of knives.
Under the proposed recipe tree, someone with 100 copper and plenty of wood could make... 80 knives (80 ingots + 20 ingots * 4 studs per ingot). That's 100 practices and a bigger stack of knives. And, if they didn't want to make the knives just yet, they could have made all 100 ingots into studs for an enormous stack of studs that would actually be useful for future crafting.
wood, allaryin, 2005-04-28 01:40:01
We should probably have a few different intermediary steps for wood as well, so we might have beams and panels and dowels in addition to regular boards. In fact, we might want freshly chopped wood to be just that - a bunch of sticks that need to first be turned into usable lumber.
Supposing the recipes for this were as follows:
16 board - log section (and make trees drop a number of these in stead)
beam - 2 board
panel - 4 board
4 dowel - board
Then, might not the house recipe then require: 40 beams, 400 panels, 1200 boards, 200 stone, and 1200 dowels to hold it all together. Those dowels might be replaced with metal spikes, etc...
This is a bit less in the way of total resources - but would be infinitely better for the player's practicing. In stead of getting the scant few practices we give for actually constructing the finished house - the player would get those points plus over 800 other practices from constructing the sub-materials.
Something I am sure people would appreciate (outside of the time requirement of course). One thing I would be willing to do if we moved all recipes to using these subcomponents - actual building assembly times would be reduced dramatically since most of the work has already been done.
Supposing the recipes for this were as follows:
16 board - log section (and make trees drop a number of these in stead)
beam - 2 board
panel - 4 board
4 dowel - board
Then, might not the house recipe then require: 40 beams, 400 panels, 1200 boards, 200 stone, and 1200 dowels to hold it all together. Those dowels might be replaced with metal spikes, etc...
This is a bit less in the way of total resources - but would be infinitely better for the player's practicing. In stead of getting the scant few practices we give for actually constructing the finished house - the player would get those points plus over 800 other practices from constructing the sub-materials.
Something I am sure people would appreciate (outside of the time requirement of course). One thing I would be willing to do if we moved all recipes to using these subcomponents - actual building assembly times would be reduced dramatically since most of the work has already been done.
gpfault, gpfault, 2005-08-30 14:31:28
recursive recipes...
Trying to craft something automatically tries to craft its components. Which in turn...
Trying to craft something automatically tries to craft its components. Which in turn...
no, allaryin, 2005-08-31 01:45:05
I really would prefer not to write something like this into the mudlib. It is a good feature for a graphical game where you can offload that kind of expensive calculation to the client - I'm thinking it winds up as O(n^n) or something horrific like that.
In general, recursive anything is bad in LPC.
That, and I'm a bit hesitant to make players any more automated than they already are - am gonna allow for contingency/panic healing perhaps, but that's about it.
In general, recursive anything is bad in LPC.
That, and I'm a bit hesitant to make players any more automated than they already are - am gonna allow for contingency/panic healing perhaps, but that's about it.
ore vs ingot, allaryin, 2005-04-28 01:41:49
Some of you have probably noticed that copper and iron mines drop ore which must then be smelted into usable ingots, where all other metal has been falling out of the walls in magical little stacks of usability. This will change whenever I get around to it. All minerals will be dropped in ore form - which is another step for extra practices and less wasted materials.
gems and leather, allaryin, 2005-04-28 08:03:25
For the time being, it will be assumed that gemstones are dropped in their usable form. We might allow some sort of refining process in the future to turn a 'diamond' into a 'brilliant cut polished diamond' or whatever, but I don't see much of a need for that at the moment.
Pelts already involve the intermediary process. They go from pelt to cut hide to tanned leather, so that's all good.
Textiles will also naturally have the same sort of phases. They will start as raw plant or hair, will turn into thread, and will then be woven into cloth.
Any primary crafting components that I am forgetting?
Stone? How do we handle this sucker? There have already been complaints that the -only- way to practice masonry is by constructing buildings (I suggested building highway systems under the current system). What sort of options are there that people might be able to have to practice their stone skills between mining and building?
Pelts already involve the intermediary process. They go from pelt to cut hide to tanned leather, so that's all good.
Textiles will also naturally have the same sort of phases. They will start as raw plant or hair, will turn into thread, and will then be woven into cloth.
Any primary crafting components that I am forgetting?
Stone? How do we handle this sucker? There have already been complaints that the -only- way to practice masonry is by constructing buildings (I suggested building highway systems under the current system). What sort of options are there that people might be able to have to practice their stone skills between mining and building?
Hmm.., snarky, 2005-04-28 08:59:35
Not sure if this'll make sense but what about gravel? Now, its not really between the mining and building of most things, but it could be used, say in a flower bed or walkway (small path, similar to a road). Gravel could then go into something finer (not sure if you plan to have concrete or anything like it, but this could require a stone dust).
If you just want easier things to construct (you mentioned a highway), Maybe there could be a stone sign, that's just a little fancier then the wood one now (like ones at the entrance to real-life neighborhoods). Or you could have a stone path, instead of a gravel one.
Also, couldn't we use it in landscaping? Keeping on the garden theme (not sure why I've got them in mind today), what about having a 'rock garden' or just allowing people to place decorative rocks (such as in a zen garden). Well, I hope these lead to some ideas!
If you just want easier things to construct (you mentioned a highway), Maybe there could be a stone sign, that's just a little fancier then the wood one now (like ones at the entrance to real-life neighborhoods). Or you could have a stone path, instead of a gravel one.
Also, couldn't we use it in landscaping? Keeping on the garden theme (not sure why I've got them in mind today), what about having a 'rock garden' or just allowing people to place decorative rocks (such as in a zen garden). Well, I hope these lead to some ideas!
ok, good, allaryin, 2005-04-28 16:02:42
Gravel and dust are good options coming from blocks of stone, but that pretty much only affects roads and concrete. Ok, we can make concrete... heh, quick-dry cement, require x-many kilos of the stuff + water in buildings ;)
Ok, what if we made harvested stones much larger, kind of like what I'm proposing with trees... we could then require you to cut them into usable sized blocks.
Also have bricks to consider.
Ok, what if we made harvested stones much larger, kind of like what I'm proposing with trees... we could then require you to cut them into usable sized blocks.
Also have bricks to consider.
except..., snarky, 2005-04-28 16:10:49
...bricks aren't stone? It'd be masonry, but wouldn't have to do with mining... Might be a good idea though.
yeah, allaryin, 2005-04-28 17:21:10
Well aware that bricks aren't stone ;)
They'd probably be Journeyman and Master level masonry materials. Brick roads would be nice as well as cool red-brick buildings, etc... Actual brickmaking is novice level stuff, just can't build with them until higher.
Hmm... what ingredients? Mud and straw? :) Exotic dirts... scary. Add mud as a component that is dug from riverbanks?
They'd probably be Journeyman and Master level masonry materials. Brick roads would be nice as well as cool red-brick buildings, etc... Actual brickmaking is novice level stuff, just can't build with them until higher.
Hmm... what ingredients? Mud and straw? :) Exotic dirts... scary. Add mud as a component that is dug from riverbanks?
Ingrediants, snarky, 2005-04-28 20:02:21
Perhaps, besides ingrediants, you'd need something like the wooden forms real brick makers (used to) need. Then, to make a brick, you put in the straw and clay (I believe that is the real ingrediant?) and let it sit. Since clay isn't mined, but dug up, that could be another skill you know, and use a shovel to get it.
brick ingredients, ceramics, allaryin, 2005-04-29 04:41:35
Ok, bricks are made from clay or shale. Actually allowing people to dig clay from riverbeds has other fairly obvious benefits - pottery is good crafting.
Not really sure if we want a separate skill just for digging up freely available resources - but requiring a tool for the job is probably not a bad idea. The big question is how do we regulate how much clay can be removed from a riverbed - and how often.
And since we're an instant gratification society, there's no way people are going to want to wait for bricks to sun dry. Nope. They're gonna use kilns - which kiln objects will need to be heated to blazing temps before the crafting command is entered, I think.
Also, since we already allow people to dig flint... why not simply add clay and slate to the list of diggables. Then, we have a much more interesting variety of building materials for masons to work with. Allow for digging ash from campfires and sand from dunes, and we suddenly have the ability to make glass and cement.
Slate would come in rather decently sized chunks that could be broken up into tiles. Possibly one slate stone turning into 3 to 5 tiles at random? Sand, ash, and dust (and gravel) would be sort of semi-liquids that would be measured in pinches and hands full as well as more scientific measurements.
The one other material we need to have a full scale building industry would be gypsum.
Plaster =
gypsum + water (N)
Mortar =
plaster + sand + water (N)
limestone + water (J)
Concrete =
gravel + sand + cement, where
Cement =
clay + water (A)
limestone + gypsum (J)
ash + water (M)
Tar?
In addition to casting normal building bricks, clay tiles could be cast for both roofing and flooring purposes. Higher level potters could mix additives into their clay for colour and perhaps strength.
Recycling of pottery? Grinding slate to make clay?
Not really sure if we want a separate skill just for digging up freely available resources - but requiring a tool for the job is probably not a bad idea. The big question is how do we regulate how much clay can be removed from a riverbed - and how often.
And since we're an instant gratification society, there's no way people are going to want to wait for bricks to sun dry. Nope. They're gonna use kilns - which kiln objects will need to be heated to blazing temps before the crafting command is entered, I think.
Also, since we already allow people to dig flint... why not simply add clay and slate to the list of diggables. Then, we have a much more interesting variety of building materials for masons to work with. Allow for digging ash from campfires and sand from dunes, and we suddenly have the ability to make glass and cement.
Slate would come in rather decently sized chunks that could be broken up into tiles. Possibly one slate stone turning into 3 to 5 tiles at random? Sand, ash, and dust (and gravel) would be sort of semi-liquids that would be measured in pinches and hands full as well as more scientific measurements.
The one other material we need to have a full scale building industry would be gypsum.
Plaster =
gypsum + water (N)
Mortar =
plaster + sand + water (N)
limestone + water (J)
Concrete =
gravel + sand + cement, where
Cement =
clay + water (A)
limestone + gypsum (J)
ash + water (M)
Tar?
In addition to casting normal building bricks, clay tiles could be cast for both roofing and flooring purposes. Higher level potters could mix additives into their clay for colour and perhaps strength.
Recycling of pottery? Grinding slate to make clay?
Adobe, garvin, 2005-09-08 23:06:00
Mud and Straw bricks
Don't forget the brick frame.
Don't forget the brick frame.
bone, allaryin, 2005-04-28 15:56:36
Bone and carapace equipment.
more details, allaryin, 2005-04-29 05:17:27
Ok, all critters with the exceptions of plasmoids are going to have either bones or exoskeletons (shell or chitin).
Shells come from aquatic critters. Most mollusk shells are probably inappropriate for use as armour. They will be jewellery-grade carving material in most cases.
Tortoise shells and arthropod chitin will be referred to as carapace for most crafting purposes and will be considered identical in recipes. Probably.
I expect that carapace will probably be given a size value just like pelts. We will then allow for a bonecrafter to cut them into universally sized plates that will be usable for things like scale armours.
Carapace pieces of the right sizes should probably be craftable directly into shields without being broken up first. Once separated, it will probably not be possible to reassemble bits of carapace.
For actual carving of bone, there are two options. First, for the lower levels of skill (N-J), we will require that one has sufficient bones to work with that are of the correct size. Probably going to go with SML for sizes on useful bones. And, unless we want to come up with things to do with rat's legs... I don't think we'll be adding Tiny to the list of sizes any time soon? Hmm.
At master-level bonecraft, I am envisioning some sort of semi-magical molding process where the fibrous material is wetted down and roled out into sheets. These sheets could be used very similarly to wooden boards - and would lead to some incredibly high-level equipment.
In most cases, claws, teeth, stingers, and horns will be atomic units that will be added to recipes and not worked on themselves. The exceptions to this would be large antlers and ivory tusks that will probably be treated very similarly to bones.
Shells come from aquatic critters. Most mollusk shells are probably inappropriate for use as armour. They will be jewellery-grade carving material in most cases.
Tortoise shells and arthropod chitin will be referred to as carapace for most crafting purposes and will be considered identical in recipes. Probably.
I expect that carapace will probably be given a size value just like pelts. We will then allow for a bonecrafter to cut them into universally sized plates that will be usable for things like scale armours.
Carapace pieces of the right sizes should probably be craftable directly into shields without being broken up first. Once separated, it will probably not be possible to reassemble bits of carapace.
For actual carving of bone, there are two options. First, for the lower levels of skill (N-J), we will require that one has sufficient bones to work with that are of the correct size. Probably going to go with SML for sizes on useful bones. And, unless we want to come up with things to do with rat's legs... I don't think we'll be adding Tiny to the list of sizes any time soon? Hmm.
At master-level bonecraft, I am envisioning some sort of semi-magical molding process where the fibrous material is wetted down and roled out into sheets. These sheets could be used very similarly to wooden boards - and would lead to some incredibly high-level equipment.
In most cases, claws, teeth, stingers, and horns will be atomic units that will be added to recipes and not worked on themselves. The exceptions to this would be large antlers and ivory tusks that will probably be treated very similarly to bones.
Tiny?, snarky, 2005-04-29 16:02:08
As for the tiny, what about crafting such things as needles? Or perhaps pins. These could have both trade as well as martial uses.
I remember something from a book i once read., garvin, 2006-01-14 00:42:56
One of the rarely known "arts" in the world of this book was "bone moulding." Granted, it was an art, and so most of the pieces weren't so much functional as they were aesthetic or magical items. But it made use of singing and focusing magic into the bone, shaping it by hand. Regardless, with this, it might even be possible to create "bone knives" and the like, not just "bone handled knives", but knives where the blade was made of bone through master craftsmanship. Granted, these objects would not be reparable.
remember, allaryin, 2005-04-29 05:37:21
Bone is basically just wood where plant cells are swapped for animal ones and an inorganic substance has been added to the mix.
Difference between animal and plant cells? Shape and vacuoles... So bone is less square than wood on average and is more water-proof.
Difference between animal and plant cells? Shape and vacuoles... So bone is less square than wood on average and is more water-proof.
textiles, allaryin, 2005-08-15 09:32:01
Snarky and I discussed textiles last night when figuring out how to make a piece of string for one of his Witac quests. These numbers are not yet canon, but are pretty durned close.
The current thinking is that thread objects will be created in 'lengths' of 25cm (10in for those of you who refused to learn metric in elementary school). We will assume that individual lengths of thread may be tied to eachother when crafting with no adverse affects.
Threads will come in both 'coarse' and 'fine' varieties. Coarse threads will be lower level materials and are more likely to be used in leatherworking than fine thread - which is more likely to find its way into cloth products.
Many thread objects (probably 100) may be combined with an empty wooden spool to create a spool of thread. Large textile crafting recipes will require spools and not just a quantity of individual threads. Creating a spool will be a fairly simple (apprentice) woodworking recipe and wrapping the thread onto the spool will be a novice level tailoring recipe.
In addition to creating spools of thread, it will also be possible to create twine, yarn, and rope. One length of twine is created by combining three lengths of coarse thread. One length of yarn is created by combining 20 lengths of fine thread - although some materials skip the thread phase and go directly to a yarn state. One length of rope is created by combining 9 lengths of twine.
Thus, to create a 15 meter (50 ft) rope, one needs a grand total of 1620 lengths of a suitable coarse thread. All of these recipes are 'pure' and will thus only work with like objects.
In addition to being used to create different sorts of string objects, thread may also be woven into cloth. A single square of cloth measures 25cm x 25cm and is created as a combination of numerous threads and/or yarns.
To generate cloth similar to 100 thread count bedsheets - which will be termed 'coarse' cloth even though it is probably fairly nice stuff - we are looking at 1000 lengths of thread, ten spools. Individual cloth recipes will vary, and will come in different patterns, which will require different combinations of thickness and colour.
Initially, squares of cloth will be dyeable to allow for coloured clothing as a result. Once the technology becomes sufficiently advanced that people are able to weave special patterns of cloth, we will allow for the dying of spools as well.
Our initial target material list for string objects is: wool, cotton, flax (linen), silk, coir (coconut husk), and animal sinew (tendons).
Coir will be gathered by making sacrifices to the coconut god. One ripe coconut may be broken apart (metal spike required) into its constituent materials - coir and copra (the meat). The meat will retain its usefulness as a food source - but it will be completely dry. One coconut will yield five pieces of copra - each of which will contain only slightly less than 1/5 of the nutrition that would have been found in a whole coconut.
The coconut will also produce one 100g ball of coir. Each ball may then be spun into 600 lengths of course coir thread. There will be no fine coir thread. The threads may then, of course, be turned into twine and then into rope. The material will generally be used in its twine state and while it should be possible to make incredibly coarse cloth out of it, it will more likely be used to produce flooring, mattresses, and such.
I _dare_ you to find accurate data for me on the average coir/copra production by length/mass of any given single coconut. 30 minutes of web surfage has produced nothing so far, so the numbers get to appear out of thin air. The only hard number I managed to find is that the specific gravity of copra is something like 0.53, and that doesn't really help with any of this.
Wool will be gathered by shearing sheepies. The resultant balls of wool will be carded directly into yarn (soap required as part of the recipe). A single adult sheepie will produce something between 3 and 6kg of wool (for the particularly large and hairy varieties), being divided up into 100g balls. Each ball will then turn into 800 lengths of yarn (200m). Thus, if an average sheepie produces 40 balls of wool, we are looking at 32 squares (2m^2) of coarse wool cloth that may be produced as a result.
Cotton and flax will be grown as crops. Each square of the field will produce x-many bundles of the material. Each bundle of cotton may be carded to produce 3 balls of useful material. Each bundle of flax will produce two balls of linen fiber. Bundles will also produce a few seeds - which may be used to either continue the crop or may be turned into oil whenever that is implemented.
Both cotton and linen will produce either coarse or fine thread when spun. Fine thread may be then spun into yarn for the manufacture of cloth. The production will be one ball to 1000 lengths of coarse thread or 1500 lengths of fine for both cotton and linen.
Silk will be produced by introducing silkworms to mulberry trees. I am not certain how we will handle the cultivation of the worms themselves, but assume that they are a fairly low-maintainance renewable resource. Once a tree has been planted, it will take time for the worms to spin their coccoons. Pick the coccoons as fruit and boil the suckers. 250
For fun information and pictures: http://www.wormspit.com
Animal sinew will be usable primarily in low-level carpentry and for such things as bowstrings. We might extend things to allow the use of animal guts for strings as well - yay for musical instruments. I expect that the extraction of sinew from a corpse will be done by an extension of the butcher command - you will have to specifically extract it as it won't be produced by default. Your average deer will produce say 4-8 tendons from a good butchering. Each tendon may in turn be converted over to 6 lengths of sinew. Typically the stuff will be used in twine form.
Physics of bowstrings: http://www.primitiveways.com/secrets_of_sinew.html
The current thinking is that thread objects will be created in 'lengths' of 25cm (10in for those of you who refused to learn metric in elementary school). We will assume that individual lengths of thread may be tied to eachother when crafting with no adverse affects.
Threads will come in both 'coarse' and 'fine' varieties. Coarse threads will be lower level materials and are more likely to be used in leatherworking than fine thread - which is more likely to find its way into cloth products.
Many thread objects (probably 100) may be combined with an empty wooden spool to create a spool of thread. Large textile crafting recipes will require spools and not just a quantity of individual threads. Creating a spool will be a fairly simple (apprentice) woodworking recipe and wrapping the thread onto the spool will be a novice level tailoring recipe.
In addition to creating spools of thread, it will also be possible to create twine, yarn, and rope. One length of twine is created by combining three lengths of coarse thread. One length of yarn is created by combining 20 lengths of fine thread - although some materials skip the thread phase and go directly to a yarn state. One length of rope is created by combining 9 lengths of twine.
Thus, to create a 15 meter (50 ft) rope, one needs a grand total of 1620 lengths of a suitable coarse thread. All of these recipes are 'pure' and will thus only work with like objects.
In addition to being used to create different sorts of string objects, thread may also be woven into cloth. A single square of cloth measures 25cm x 25cm and is created as a combination of numerous threads and/or yarns.
To generate cloth similar to 100 thread count bedsheets - which will be termed 'coarse' cloth even though it is probably fairly nice stuff - we are looking at 1000 lengths of thread, ten spools. Individual cloth recipes will vary, and will come in different patterns, which will require different combinations of thickness and colour.
Initially, squares of cloth will be dyeable to allow for coloured clothing as a result. Once the technology becomes sufficiently advanced that people are able to weave special patterns of cloth, we will allow for the dying of spools as well.
Our initial target material list for string objects is: wool, cotton, flax (linen), silk, coir (coconut husk), and animal sinew (tendons).
Coir will be gathered by making sacrifices to the coconut god. One ripe coconut may be broken apart (metal spike required) into its constituent materials - coir and copra (the meat). The meat will retain its usefulness as a food source - but it will be completely dry. One coconut will yield five pieces of copra - each of which will contain only slightly less than 1/5 of the nutrition that would have been found in a whole coconut.
The coconut will also produce one 100g ball of coir. Each ball may then be spun into 600 lengths of course coir thread. There will be no fine coir thread. The threads may then, of course, be turned into twine and then into rope. The material will generally be used in its twine state and while it should be possible to make incredibly coarse cloth out of it, it will more likely be used to produce flooring, mattresses, and such.
I _dare_ you to find accurate data for me on the average coir/copra production by length/mass of any given single coconut. 30 minutes of web surfage has produced nothing so far, so the numbers get to appear out of thin air. The only hard number I managed to find is that the specific gravity of copra is something like 0.53, and that doesn't really help with any of this.
Wool will be gathered by shearing sheepies. The resultant balls of wool will be carded directly into yarn (soap required as part of the recipe). A single adult sheepie will produce something between 3 and 6kg of wool (for the particularly large and hairy varieties), being divided up into 100g balls. Each ball will then turn into 800 lengths of yarn (200m). Thus, if an average sheepie produces 40 balls of wool, we are looking at 32 squares (2m^2) of coarse wool cloth that may be produced as a result.
Cotton and flax will be grown as crops. Each square of the field will produce x-many bundles of the material. Each bundle of cotton may be carded to produce 3 balls of useful material. Each bundle of flax will produce two balls of linen fiber. Bundles will also produce a few seeds - which may be used to either continue the crop or may be turned into oil whenever that is implemented.
Both cotton and linen will produce either coarse or fine thread when spun. Fine thread may be then spun into yarn for the manufacture of cloth. The production will be one ball to 1000 lengths of coarse thread or 1500 lengths of fine for both cotton and linen.
Silk will be produced by introducing silkworms to mulberry trees. I am not certain how we will handle the cultivation of the worms themselves, but assume that they are a fairly low-maintainance renewable resource. Once a tree has been planted, it will take time for the worms to spin their coccoons. Pick the coccoons as fruit and boil the suckers. 250
For fun information and pictures: http://www.wormspit.com
Animal sinew will be usable primarily in low-level carpentry and for such things as bowstrings. We might extend things to allow the use of animal guts for strings as well - yay for musical instruments. I expect that the extraction of sinew from a corpse will be done by an extension of the butcher command - you will have to specifically extract it as it won't be produced by default. Your average deer will produce say 4-8 tendons from a good butchering. Each tendon may in turn be converted over to 6 lengths of sinew. Typically the stuff will be used in twine form.
Physics of bowstrings: http://www.primitiveways.com/secrets_of_sinew.html
textile priorities and difficulties, allaryin, 2005-08-15 09:47:15
Since it would actually be very nice if we allowed players to wear clothing, this is fairly high on my priority queue. It basically comes right after I finish paper (which comes after currency, which comes after the mineral survey and weapon rebalance).
The order in which these materials will be released is as follows:
- wool - wasp clan sheepherds will set up camp a bit south of the city where they will sell balls of material as well as all necessary tailoring/weaving tools
- coir - we have coconuts already, this is really a trivial feature to add, but it will wait until the halfling shops make the tools available
- silk - mulberry trees will be introduced along with a number of other tree varieties, the worms should follow shortly (and will convert a tree from producing fruit to producing coccoons)
- cotton and linen - these seeds will be available for purchase from a stall in town
- sinew - since we already have animals, it should be fairly trivial, but as there is no need for the stuff immediately and because leatherworking and alchemy are lower on my priority queue... sinew gets to wait for advanced butchering (see carapace on my list)
Other materials will eventually be added to this as well, but they will probably have to wait until we actually open weavers. These might include such things as spider silk and other high master level ingredients as well as rabbit/goat/camel hair, grass/rush/straw, hemp, seaweed, and of course asbestos. Felts and other cloth types will also eventually probably exist.
N - sinew, wool yarn, coir
A - coarse cotton
J - fine cotton, coarse linen
M - silk, fine linen
H - spider silk
The order in which these materials will be released is as follows:
- wool - wasp clan sheepherds will set up camp a bit south of the city where they will sell balls of material as well as all necessary tailoring/weaving tools
- coir - we have coconuts already, this is really a trivial feature to add, but it will wait until the halfling shops make the tools available
- silk - mulberry trees will be introduced along with a number of other tree varieties, the worms should follow shortly (and will convert a tree from producing fruit to producing coccoons)
- cotton and linen - these seeds will be available for purchase from a stall in town
- sinew - since we already have animals, it should be fairly trivial, but as there is no need for the stuff immediately and because leatherworking and alchemy are lower on my priority queue... sinew gets to wait for advanced butchering (see carapace on my list)
Other materials will eventually be added to this as well, but they will probably have to wait until we actually open weavers. These might include such things as spider silk and other high master level ingredients as well as rabbit/goat/camel hair, grass/rush/straw, hemp, seaweed, and of course asbestos. Felts and other cloth types will also eventually probably exist.
N - sinew, wool yarn, coir
A - coarse cotton
J - fine cotton, coarse linen
M - silk, fine linen
H - spider silk
magical textiles, allaryin, 2006-10-24 00:08:57
For discussion of magical materials used in crafting textiles (gossamer, etc...) see thread 3220.
coir and copra, zaecus, 2005-08-15 13:12:50
This page gives quite a bit of raw data on coir:
http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/DOCREP/005/Y3612E/y3612e03.htm
Specifically:
"The kernel (copra, coco-water and shell) comprises 65 per cent of total weight, while the husk contributes 35 per cent."
"Coir fibres are extracted from the husks surrounding the coconut (Figure 1). In most areas coir is a by-product of copra production, and the husks are left on the fields as a mulch or used as fertilizer because of high potash content. India and Sri Lanka are the main countries where coir is extracted by traditional methods for the commercial production of a variety of products, including brushes and brooms, ropes and yarns for nets and bags and mats, and padding for mattresses. However, world wide only a small part of the fibres available are currently used for these purposes (Table 2). The average fibre yield is dependent on geographical area and the variety of the coconut tree. In the south of India and Sri Lanka, for example, where the best quality fibres are produced the average yield is 80-90 g fibre per husk. Caribbean husks, by contrast, are relatively thick and may yield up to 150 g of fibre."
(but that's not all)
[If you're into info overload, go to the index: http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/DOCREP/005/Y3612E/y3612e03.htm ]
This page ( http://www.aphorticulture.com/Coconut1.htm ) lists information on the copra content of various species, "The copra content per nut is 154 g". All seem to be 150g or more, and the opening paragraph states:
"dehusked nut possesses three district raw materials. i.e wet meat or kernel(50%), water(17%) and shell (33%) by weight approximately."
Good enough?
http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/DOCREP/005/Y3612E/y3612e03.htm
Specifically:
"The kernel (copra, coco-water and shell) comprises 65 per cent of total weight, while the husk contributes 35 per cent."
"Coir fibres are extracted from the husks surrounding the coconut (Figure 1). In most areas coir is a by-product of copra production, and the husks are left on the fields as a mulch or used as fertilizer because of high potash content. India and Sri Lanka are the main countries where coir is extracted by traditional methods for the commercial production of a variety of products, including brushes and brooms, ropes and yarns for nets and bags and mats, and padding for mattresses. However, world wide only a small part of the fibres available are currently used for these purposes (Table 2). The average fibre yield is dependent on geographical area and the variety of the coconut tree. In the south of India and Sri Lanka, for example, where the best quality fibres are produced the average yield is 80-90 g fibre per husk. Caribbean husks, by contrast, are relatively thick and may yield up to 150 g of fibre."
(but that's not all)
[If you're into info overload, go to the index: http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/DOCREP/005/Y3612E/y3612e03.htm ]
This page ( http://www.aphorticulture.com/Coconut1.htm ) lists information on the copra content of various species, "The copra content per nut is 154 g". All seem to be 150g or more, and the opening paragraph states:
"dehusked nut possesses three district raw materials. i.e wet meat or kernel(50%), water(17%) and shell (33%) by weight approximately."
Good enough?
re: 250 (silk), allaryin, 2005-08-15 14:37:11
Feh, well, looks like I forgot to finish that paragraph. What I meant to say was:
According to the wormspit guy, 250 small cocoons -> one ounce of silk.
A fairly interesting, if entirely slanted site: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/silk_worm.php
Don't know how much to trust them because of their agenda, but we will assume that their numbers are mostly correct. They quote 500 cocoons weighing in at 80kg producing 1kg of silk after having eaten 200kg of mulberry leaves. I'm having a hard time following their explanations - as they switch between (big) Sino-Japanese and (small) Thai type worms.
Let us make the assumption that our worms are more similar to the Japanese and that we get 2g of silk from a single cocoon. The wormspit guy would be giving us something like 0.11g from a single (obviously much smaller) coccoon. Our worms will be 7-8cm long when they are ready to spin.
I am seeing some science from http://FAO.org that is giving me 55,150m of raw silk from 340 cocoons. I like this number, it gives us basically 160m per cocoon (640 lengths for those who are paying attention).
Thus, one worm -> 6.4 spools of thread. Silk will only turn into fine cloth (prolly thread count somewhere near 250 for sanity reasons). Thus we have 2500 lengths to a square of cloth, or four worms.
According to the wormspit guy, 250 small cocoons -> one ounce of silk.
A fairly interesting, if entirely slanted site: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/silk_worm.php
Don't know how much to trust them because of their agenda, but we will assume that their numbers are mostly correct. They quote 500 cocoons weighing in at 80kg producing 1kg of silk after having eaten 200kg of mulberry leaves. I'm having a hard time following their explanations - as they switch between (big) Sino-Japanese and (small) Thai type worms.
Let us make the assumption that our worms are more similar to the Japanese and that we get 2g of silk from a single cocoon. The wormspit guy would be giving us something like 0.11g from a single (obviously much smaller) coccoon. Our worms will be 7-8cm long when they are ready to spin.
I am seeing some science from http://FAO.org that is giving me 55,150m of raw silk from 340 cocoons. I like this number, it gives us basically 160m per cocoon (640 lengths for those who are paying attention).
Thus, one worm -> 6.4 spools of thread. Silk will only turn into fine cloth (prolly thread count somewhere near 250 for sanity reasons). Thus we have 2500 lengths to a square of cloth, or four worms.
turning worms, zaecus, 2005-08-15 15:31:57
1) You're making it very difficult to corner the silk market for ecnturies the way the Chinese did.
2) Does the tree have to stop producing fruit?
2) Does the tree have to stop producing fruit?
bah, zaecus, 2005-08-15 15:41:33
3) I think allowing someone the option of high thread count cloh if they're willing to put in the work is extremely interesting, especially for some potential combat purposes. (silk fans and scarves of high count and extremely high quality).
Yea, snarky, 2005-08-15 15:52:36
I love using my silk scarf *Worf voice* On the fields on battle *clenched fist*!
nod, allaryin, 2005-08-15 16:46:23
1 - Yeah, I know I am probably making things too easy. Perhaps we just make sericulture a bit of an elven secret and require one to deal with them for the material.
2 - I am wanting the trees to stop producing fruit simply because it makes things easier if the tree only produces one pickable resource at a time.
3 - I have every intention of allowing silk as a viable armour material. I am well aware of its kevlar-like qualities and relatively insulative efficiency as compared to its mass.
As far as making higher quality cloth than those already mentioned, of course that will be allowed. I am giving the baseline products right now. There is always room to upgrade ;)
2 - I am wanting the trees to stop producing fruit simply because it makes things easier if the tree only produces one pickable resource at a time.
3 - I have every intention of allowing silk as a viable armour material. I am well aware of its kevlar-like qualities and relatively insulative efficiency as compared to its mass.
As far as making higher quality cloth than those already mentioned, of course that will be allowed. I am giving the baseline products right now. There is always room to upgrade ;)
sword weights, allaryin, 2005-07-12 15:20:12
For the record, I bumped into a good article on the subject, just in case anyone else ever decides to try to tell me that my swords are too light. I just noticed that the template for broadswords lists them at 15lbs... shudder.
For a FAQ targetted toward teenage idiots: (:P)
http://www.thearma.org/Youth/swordweightQ&A.htm
For a full essay on the subject:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm
For a FAQ targetted toward teenage idiots: (:P)
http://www.thearma.org/Youth/swordweightQ&A.htm
For a full essay on the subject:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm
material difficulties, allaryin, 2005-08-06 01:54:35
Each material aspect has been assigned different minimum skill levels required to work with them now. This means that newbie crafters will only have a very few options, but higher level folks will be able to produce higher quality goods.
These restrictions apply to ALL recipes, not just the 'metal' ones or whatever.
Skills required to work in different metals:
Novice: *
-------
Copper (black)
Lead (white)
Tin (white)
Apprentice: **
-----------
Bronze (black, white)
Pewter (white)
Journeyman: ***
-----------
Brass (black, white)
Iron (black)
Nickel (black)
Silver (white)
Zinc (white)
Master: ****
-------
Aluminum (white)
Electrum (white)
Gold (white)
Hardened Steel (black)
Mithril (black, J white)
Platinum (white)
Steel (black)
High Master: *****
------------
Adamant (black)
Orichalcum (white, J fire, J earth, J wind, J water)
White Gold (white)
The list for woods is a bit simpler, with no crossover:
N - Elm, Fir, Pine
A - Apple, Birch, Cedar, Lemon, Lime, Orange, Pecan, Plum
J - Chestnut, Maple, Oak, Peach, Walnut
M - Ash, Cherry, Hickory, Mahogany
H - Ironwood, Olive
These restrictions apply to ALL recipes, not just the 'metal' ones or whatever.
Skills required to work in different metals:
Novice: *
-------
Copper (black)
Lead (white)
Tin (white)
Apprentice: **
-----------
Bronze (black, white)
Pewter (white)
Journeyman: ***
-----------
Brass (black, white)
Iron (black)
Nickel (black)
Silver (white)
Zinc (white)
Master: ****
-------
Aluminum (white)
Electrum (white)
Gold (white)
Hardened Steel (black)
Mithril (black, J white)
Platinum (white)
Steel (black)
High Master: *****
------------
Adamant (black)
Orichalcum (white, J fire, J earth, J wind, J water)
White Gold (white)
The list for woods is a bit simpler, with no crossover:
N - Elm, Fir, Pine
A - Apple, Birch, Cedar, Lemon, Lime, Orange, Pecan, Plum
J - Chestnut, Maple, Oak, Peach, Walnut
M - Ash, Cherry, Hickory, Mahogany
H - Ironwood, Olive
magical minerals, allaryin, 2005-08-19 02:23:00
The (now-closed) orichalcum thread 2147.
Just a small bit of trivia, garvin, 2005-09-04 11:15:44
I saw Aluminum on the list and remembered something:
The 10-inch tall pyramid at the top of the Washington monument obilisk(sp) is made not of gold or what most people would term a precious metal, but is made of Aluminum. This is because, at the time of its construction, Aluminum was more expensive than Gold because of the labor intensive process to extract it into a useable form.
The process is still true. But it is far less expensive now because of the cultural depreciation and the fact that it is far more easily recyclable than most other consumer metals.
The 10-inch tall pyramid at the top of the Washington monument obilisk(sp) is made not of gold or what most people would term a precious metal, but is made of Aluminum. This is because, at the time of its construction, Aluminum was more expensive than Gold because of the labor intensive process to extract it into a useable form.
The process is still true. But it is far less expensive now because of the cultural depreciation and the fact that it is far more easily recyclable than most other consumer metals.
more woods, allaryin, 2006-06-28 02:03:04
Additional woods to the list. (Ignore any missing logic here, btw.)
A - Bamboo, Willow
M - Pomegranate
H - Almond, Devil's pitchfork
Devil's Pitchfork - a three-trunked tree with fire-resistant wood but whose sap is highly flammable (Z's idea)
Also, this is not the whole list of woods either. Note thread 3161, where we list planned foods (and thus imply some trees).
A - Bamboo, Willow
M - Pomegranate
H - Almond, Devil's pitchfork
Devil's Pitchfork - a three-trunked tree with fire-resistant wood but whose sap is highly flammable (Z's idea)
Also, this is not the whole list of woods either. Note thread 3161, where we list planned foods (and thus imply some trees).
cacao, zaecus, 2006-06-28 02:09:38
I know nothing about this wood, only being passably familiar with the beans. I cannot even say with authority that it is an actual tree.
I was asked to add it here, however.
I was asked to add it here, however.