Walraven // Forums // Thread 199
I think there should be some kind of penalty for dying (such as item loss, mana loss, etc.), icemaester, 2003-01-16 21:01:25
This idea reported by Icemaester
I think there should be some kind of penalty for dying (such as item loss, mana loss, etc.)
I think there should be some kind of penalty for dying (such as item loss, mana loss, etc.)
penalties, malap, 2003-01-18 16:35:07
Why?
Offhand, we do have one penalty: geographic. You get bumped back to the shack. As for item/stat/mana/whatever loss, why? What about it would make the game better because of it?
I'll note here that the 'repop in the shack' is a place-holder until we have some better game-fictiony way to do it. Here's some links from the mailing list archive about it:
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2001-February/000437.html
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2002-March/000516.html
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2002-March/000521.html
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2002-March/000532.html
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2002-August/000580.html
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2002-September/000593.html
(I'm also moving this discussion to gameplay forum.)
Offhand, we do have one penalty: geographic. You get bumped back to the shack. As for item/stat/mana/whatever loss, why? What about it would make the game better because of it?
I'll note here that the 'repop in the shack' is a place-holder until we have some better game-fictiony way to do it. Here's some links from the mailing list archive about it:
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2001-February/000437.html
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2002-March/000516.html
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2002-March/000521.html
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2002-March/000532.html
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2002-August/000580.html
http://simud.org/pipermail/walraven/2002-September/000593.html
(I'm also moving this discussion to gameplay forum.)
Shack repop, athenon, 2003-05-07 18:18:23
Sometimes, when one wants to return to the shack, one must simply kill theirself. Often, players use this to their advantage.
Dude think about it, angel, 2003-05-16 21:47:35
If you DO kill yourself or plain die, you do lose ALL of your life, if you make it to where you lose items when you die people will hate the game and leave. I think players would understand mana lose (maybe half it?) but item lose is not a good idea.
Angel: Maester of Heaven's Will
Angel: Maester of Heaven's Will
Uh.., felix, 2003-05-17 02:00:47
Pretty much every other mud when you die, you lose all of your items.. people don't leave because of that. I think we've just spoiled you guys.
oops, angel, 2003-05-17 10:26:09
I didn't know that I've only played on SIMud.
idea, angel, 2003-05-17 10:30:54
maybe when you die you drop like 3-5 items at random in your inventory so that you can go reclaim them or other peolpe can get free stuff. Just an idea.
Well..., felix, 2003-05-17 13:12:02
In most of the other muds that I've played.. when you died you'd leave a corpse containing all of your items.. but it's not very realistic.. seeing your own corpse and all.
Hmm..., athenon, 2003-05-17 21:50:52
How about losing stats, or money, or something like that?
um..., angel, 2003-05-17 22:18:07
Do you know how long it take for you to raise stats? The money idea is ok i guess. Hey are players even supost to read and reply to these?
stats, forums, malap, 2003-05-17 22:56:24
Stats change seems to be happening a little too slowly; I gave myself a 20 speed and it hasn't decayed at all and my other stats have only gone down slightly. Allaryin, tweak time?
And players are more than welcome to join in the discussions on the forums, we like hearing what you all have to say. If we didn't want you writing, you wouldn't be allowed to post. :)
And players are more than welcome to join in the discussions on the forums, we like hearing what you all have to say. If we didn't want you writing, you wouldn't be allowed to post. :)
FYI, sora, 2005-10-05 10:44:53
Stats decay is gone. Death penalty is in the form of stats.
Death, anonymous, 2003-06-13 18:36:30
I feel that a character should only have one life and when they're dead the player should need to create a new character. If they have something to lose like their life they won't just try to keep fighting a fight they can't win because they can respawn. Also losing objects or having to start over creates a drive to keep your character alive that would not normally be there. www.glitchless.com. This ia a MMORPG that I was very interested until they decided to 'postpone the project' until they had more time. The FAQ has some ideas and concepts that I feel are relevent to all RPG type games and I highly encourage you to venture there and read them. Just my 2 cents.
-Kurshuk-
-Kurshuk-
..., focker, 2003-06-13 23:00:06
That MIGHT be a good idea, if the combat weren't so terribly unbalanced. There are very few things (if anything at all) that a new character can kill using conventional weapons (i.e., not wands).
..., kurshuk, 2003-06-14 00:11:25
If the combat is so unbalanced that players will die fighting anything without magic then my only response would be that characters should start the game with resonable skills or that magic is too powerful. Bear in mind that all of my opinions are skewed towards a realistic no/low-magic world.
-Kurshuk-
-Kurshuk-
yow, malap, 2003-06-15 19:33:58
Well, this is an idea that's been around a few years and is hotly debated. It's commonly known as "permadeath", just google for that word and you'll find a huge number of discussions, rants, and web pages. Long ago it was decided against, so we're not going to implement it.
nod, no permadeath, allaryin, 2003-06-18 15:55:55
That is very correct. There is only one way in the world that I would consider instituting permadeath in a game I had any control over... and that is if players had x-many lives before they die out forever, and have means of aquiring more lives.
For example, players on Discworld have 7 lives, and may purchase more by making excessive donations at the temples - in very specific units of currency. The cost per extra life is unspecified and increases with each life. This limit has not affected me at all, since I have only died two or three times since I began playing there.
However, that is not their only penalty for death. The biggest penalty is loss of equipment and time - you wander around as a ghost until somebody can resurrect you. My most recent death involved drowning. Do you know how long it takes a diver to retrieve a very extensive inventory of spell components from the bottom of a river? First thing I did as soon as I was resurrected and had all of my stuff back was max out my swimming skill and develop a phobia of water - and I've not died again since.
-That- was a deterrant.
For example, players on Discworld have 7 lives, and may purchase more by making excessive donations at the temples - in very specific units of currency. The cost per extra life is unspecified and increases with each life. This limit has not affected me at all, since I have only died two or three times since I began playing there.
However, that is not their only penalty for death. The biggest penalty is loss of equipment and time - you wander around as a ghost until somebody can resurrect you. My most recent death involved drowning. Do you know how long it takes a diver to retrieve a very extensive inventory of spell components from the bottom of a river? First thing I did as soon as I was resurrected and had all of my stuff back was max out my swimming skill and develop a phobia of water - and I've not died again since.
-That- was a deterrant.
like a cat you are, angel, 2003-06-24 08:27:33
The death penalty on that game sounds as if it could get realy annoying very fast...
more ideas, not original though, angel, 2003-06-28 17:22:57
I was watching a friend play a mud a good while back, and he died...
When he did he got sent to the "underworld" where a god of death came to him and said "Listen buddy you aren't suppost to die yet. Tell you what, I'll make you a deal. You get rid of these courpses(3) and I'll let you return." It took forever for him to do so because the enemys had alot of life. But when he did kill them all he was re-spawned with 1/2 life, mana, and summon points.
When he did he got sent to the "underworld" where a god of death came to him and said "Listen buddy you aren't suppost to die yet. Tell you what, I'll make you a deal. You get rid of these courpses(3) and I'll let you return." It took forever for him to do so because the enemys had alot of life. But when he did kill them all he was re-spawned with 1/2 life, mana, and summon points.
Ah death, the great equalizer, venger, 2003-12-05 22:48:36
Yeah, stat penalties stink. Xp penalties are also kinda bad, but far more accepted in most games. On the other hand, you don't want 'penalties' that players actually 'enjoy', this would kind of defeat the purpose, neh?
The best form of a death penalty is a system where everything that was in your inventory EXCEPT what you had equipped is put on your corpse, and you have to go retreive it. This is actually quite fair, as you just provide a bank or storage system(houses anyone?) for players to keep their valuables in. The other part to this is that one or more pieces of the eq. you have on at the time, while you don't loose it, takes a hit to durability. Then you have to have it repaired.
This seems like the fairest way to actually do it. Thoughts?
The best form of a death penalty is a system where everything that was in your inventory EXCEPT what you had equipped is put on your corpse, and you have to go retreive it. This is actually quite fair, as you just provide a bank or storage system(houses anyone?) for players to keep their valuables in. The other part to this is that one or more pieces of the eq. you have on at the time, while you don't loose it, takes a hit to durability. Then you have to have it repaired.
This seems like the fairest way to actually do it. Thoughts?
argh!, venger, 2003-12-05 22:49:42
Btw, I'd just like to say that not being able to edit posts you made for spelling later on when you realise you were tired when you wrote them, stinketh :)
hrm..., allaryin, 2003-12-11 08:39:34
Interesting. I think that doing something like this would not be a very bad idea at all.
However, I am still largely in favor of making people hang out in OOC-land for a period of time before allowing them to respawn. The length of the delay would increase with character 'level', their age, and the number of times they've died before. Something like this might be in order:
15 seconds per level + 15 seconds per day + 1 minute per previous death
So, say Sora dies for the first time at his current level of skill (~36) and age (~5.5 days), he would have a 10 minute, 22 second delay before being allowed to respawn.
Suppose he dies again while trying to retrieve the original corpse... the respawn delay would be bumped up to 11 minutes and 22 seconds.
Not a major penalty by any means, but sufficient that it quickly discourages dying without being horribly evil to newbies.
However, I am still largely in favor of making people hang out in OOC-land for a period of time before allowing them to respawn. The length of the delay would increase with character 'level', their age, and the number of times they've died before. Something like this might be in order:
15 seconds per level + 15 seconds per day + 1 minute per previous death
So, say Sora dies for the first time at his current level of skill (~36) and age (~5.5 days), he would have a 10 minute, 22 second delay before being allowed to respawn.
Suppose he dies again while trying to retrieve the original corpse... the respawn delay would be bumped up to 11 minutes and 22 seconds.
Not a major penalty by any means, but sufficient that it quickly discourages dying without being horribly evil to newbies.
Gimping newbies, acius, 2003-12-11 15:52:46
Hmm, I like the general idea of waiting after death (it discourages wave-of-death style battering ram attacks), but I'm not sure I like the permanent 1 minute per previous death penalty. It encourages very cautious behavior as a newbie (the time when people die the most) because if you die as a newbie, you've permanently gimped your character with an extra minute per death.
Perhaps we could allow a choice of respawn vs. reincarnate. If you respawn, you get your equipment and body back, minus a few stat points and after waiting your time. If you reincarnate, you lose anything you were carrying and have your stats entirely rerolled -- but you don't have to wait as long (although you don't want a wave-of-reincarnates battering ram attack either, so this isn't a perfect system).
I'm not sure I see much of an advantage to a gradually increasing wait time. Why not just make it a flat five minutes? Not only is it slightly simpler, it would also mean that you wouldn't penalize high level players for being high level. I guess there's arguments on both sides of that, but I'm not convinced that a complex formula is necessary or desirable here.
Perhaps we could allow a choice of respawn vs. reincarnate. If you respawn, you get your equipment and body back, minus a few stat points and after waiting your time. If you reincarnate, you lose anything you were carrying and have your stats entirely rerolled -- but you don't have to wait as long (although you don't want a wave-of-reincarnates battering ram attack either, so this isn't a perfect system).
I'm not sure I see much of an advantage to a gradually increasing wait time. Why not just make it a flat five minutes? Not only is it slightly simpler, it would also mean that you wouldn't penalize high level players for being high level. I guess there's arguments on both sides of that, but I'm not convinced that a complex formula is necessary or desirable here.
hmm..., allaryin, 2004-01-12 12:38:06
Perhaps we could wait until people hit a day of age before increasing the penalty? Or, perhaps do some other newbie protection, ie, scaled penalties along these lines:
Age:
<1 hour 30 second lecture on death from Odin, respawn fully healed
<6 hours rehashing of lecture, respawn at 1/2 hp/mana/end
<12 hours go to ooc land for 5 minutes, respawn at 1/2 hp/mana/end
<24 hours ooc land for 5 minutes, respawn at 1/2 hp, 0 mana/end
>24 hours increasing durations as i had mentioned
Age:
<1 hour 30 second lecture on death from Odin, respawn fully healed
<6 hours rehashing of lecture, respawn at 1/2 hp/mana/end
<12 hours go to ooc land for 5 minutes, respawn at 1/2 hp/mana/end
<24 hours ooc land for 5 minutes, respawn at 1/2 hp, 0 mana/end
>24 hours increasing durations as i had mentioned
ack, malap, 2004-01-12 15:55:13
So if a player spends a while wandering around with the friend that got them to come play, they can still end up hosed the first death? A likely scenario, and not a pretty one.
ouch, sora, 2004-01-12 17:20:39
I don't like the increasing penalty. Once you hit 10 deaths (or just being involved in a couple of wars will make this horrid), the wait time is massive). It will make players not able to do something for a long while.
inconvenient deaths, rusalka, 2004-01-24 12:12:13
At this point, I find just getting bumped to another place sufficiently inconvenient (especially when I'm still not always sure how I got to wherever I got to before I died).
I honestly can't think of a way to manage death that doesn't deter Insto Death Seekers without potentially discourging newbies. Maybe the answer is to ignore the Insto Death folks. Or fix it so that if you keep trying to fight Duane the Dragon on the off chance that you might get a lucky break, Duane the Dragon gets really annoyed with you after your fifth death to him and refuses to play...or after you've managed to kill yourself ten times in the last hour, the NPC's look at you really funny and refuse to interact with you for a while 'cause they think you can't possibly be alive, and therefor they must be seeing things...
I honestly can't think of a way to manage death that doesn't deter Insto Death Seekers without potentially discourging newbies. Maybe the answer is to ignore the Insto Death folks. Or fix it so that if you keep trying to fight Duane the Dragon on the off chance that you might get a lucky break, Duane the Dragon gets really annoyed with you after your fifth death to him and refuses to play...or after you've managed to kill yourself ten times in the last hour, the NPC's look at you really funny and refuse to interact with you for a while 'cause they think you can't possibly be alive, and therefor they must be seeing things...
Yeah,, sora, 2004-01-27 16:18:42
This is cool.
I never thought of applying this sort of realism. Shopkeepers that won't sell to you (or other NPCs too) "Hey max, I'm seeing ghosts again. This Sora Character is trying to buy stiff from my shop. I'll be a dwarf before I sell anything to a ghost." if you've died so many times too quickly (for a while at least).
I never thought of applying this sort of realism. Shopkeepers that won't sell to you (or other NPCs too) "Hey max, I'm seeing ghosts again. This Sora Character is trying to buy stiff from my shop. I'll be a dwarf before I sell anything to a ghost." if you've died so many times too quickly (for a while at least).
agree, landshark, 2004-04-19 11:03:37
Definitely an interesting idea. What's even more interesting is this is similar to 'forced OOC' after you die, except that you can go around and do things. I like this idea.
Another view, gpfault, 2005-01-10 14:58:55
I think there should be some penalty for dying (eventually that is, as it may currently prove an obstacle for beta testers, but I don't know), and in fact have in game support for this:
I'm in the world right now and have been killed a few times and I find it too easy to just have your items "hitchhike your ghost" back to the peak. Plus, if I were having a hard fight with a rich opponent, I'd want to get their goods if I defeat them, which IMPLIES that said goods would be abandoned at death. For otherwise where is the "treasure" that comes with combat?
Plus...it's just plain common sense. When someone dies in real life, their goods don't "follow the ghost", but remain as they are.
Furthermore, if people commit suicide (by starvation, for example), they could just go to a really hard part of the game, get a prize, and then die, allowing them to cheat in the sense they don't have to fight their way back home. I've taken advantage of this "loophole" in a number of video games in fact. While it is sly, it gives me a minor sense of having cheated.
I think as follows:
mana: part should follow the ghost and part should remain in the body (it is somewhat "ethereal/astral/extraplanar" in nature anyway)
(maybe the trauma of death would cause some mana to "leak" into the "ambient pool")
gold and items: dropped with corpse
skills: follow ghost
if it's tangible or has a physical impact, it should be left behind with the body.
I'm in the world right now and have been killed a few times and I find it too easy to just have your items "hitchhike your ghost" back to the peak. Plus, if I were having a hard fight with a rich opponent, I'd want to get their goods if I defeat them, which IMPLIES that said goods would be abandoned at death. For otherwise where is the "treasure" that comes with combat?
Plus...it's just plain common sense. When someone dies in real life, their goods don't "follow the ghost", but remain as they are.
Furthermore, if people commit suicide (by starvation, for example), they could just go to a really hard part of the game, get a prize, and then die, allowing them to cheat in the sense they don't have to fight their way back home. I've taken advantage of this "loophole" in a number of video games in fact. While it is sly, it gives me a minor sense of having cheated.
I think as follows:
mana: part should follow the ghost and part should remain in the body (it is somewhat "ethereal/astral/extraplanar" in nature anyway)
(maybe the trauma of death would cause some mana to "leak" into the "ambient pool")
gold and items: dropped with corpse
skills: follow ghost
if it's tangible or has a physical impact, it should be left behind with the body.
Just noticing, gpfault, 2005-01-28 14:07:40
There already is a decent penalty for dying: When you are reincarnated, you are not only dropped back at the start, but your health is also not restored. Your HP loss "carries over" beyond the grave, so you have to heal back up normally.
That's just my two cents.
That's just my two cents.
official pronouncement, allaryin, 2005-01-29 00:21:02
There -will- be a penalty imposed for dying, the hp loss does not count as one because, well, you'd still be injured even if you hadn't died, ne?
Most likely, the penalty will be in the form of some sort of downtime that prevents you from functioning at 100% capacity for a period. I want lower penalties for newbies and higher penalties for Sora. The exact nature of these penalties has yet to be determined, but will happen eventually.
Right now, we're waiting to impose this penalty for a number of reasons, mostly because we're too lazy to write it. Death has pretty much always been on Acius' checklist, and nobody else has offered to take it away from him because only the admin know enough to write something so complex - and none of the rest of us feel like doing it.
Most likely, the penalty will be in the form of some sort of downtime that prevents you from functioning at 100% capacity for a period. I want lower penalties for newbies and higher penalties for Sora. The exact nature of these penalties has yet to be determined, but will happen eventually.
Right now, we're waiting to impose this penalty for a number of reasons, mostly because we're too lazy to write it. Death has pretty much always been on Acius' checklist, and nobody else has offered to take it away from him because only the admin know enough to write something so complex - and none of the rest of us feel like doing it.
looting?, gpfault, 2005-08-05 11:56:22
Well...if you die for once, maybe you should have your corpse left around until it decays (thus the timewise part).
Plus, if an NPC dies (and has property on it), you can loot the corpse, and pick up some nice armor. Plus you can butcher corpses. Maybe allow PC's to be treated the same way?
PC's are tougher than NPCs and IMHO should have a greater reward for being defeated.
Plus, if an NPC dies (and has property on it), you can loot the corpse, and pick up some nice armor. Plus you can butcher corpses. Maybe allow PC's to be treated the same way?
PC's are tougher than NPCs and IMHO should have a greater reward for being defeated.
in short..., gpfault, 2005-10-05 08:53:49
I don't like the idea of PC corpses being treated differently from NPC corpses just cause their PC's.
In addition, if the PC corpse is left around in like manner that NPC corpses lie around, the same potential for resurrection magic applies to them both.
In addition, if the PC corpse is left around in like manner that NPC corpses lie around, the same potential for resurrection magic applies to them both.
planned, allaryin, 2005-10-05 20:45:55
But before I go into my explanation, please note that your argument would be strengthened greatly if you actually used words that meant what you think they mean. The word you are looking for is "they're" as in a contraction of "they" and "are". "their" is possessive and "there" is a location. Thank you, 3rd grade English. ;)
And now with the actual response...
Player corpses will eventually happen.
However, this is pending Acius' long-standing battle against the OOCland/death system. It will happen when it happens.
As far as looting player corpses? Well, my thought is that it would definately be nice to be able to mug other players, but there are some things that are so valuable as to render it completely unfair if players are allowed to steal them.
Thus, I anticipate some sort of dichotomy of items that are and are not soulbound (for lack of a better term). A good example of this would be Sora's ring. I don't mind players robbing him blind of his every last possession, but it'd be a real shame if a polar bear ate the ring.
There could likely be a fairly expensive magical ritual that binds the objects.
Again to my example of Discworld. When a player dies, their spirit is yanked out of the body and is able to float around and go 'Boo!' at people. They then have two options for receiving a rez. First, they can simply wander to the town's local resurrection provider (an NPC priest or voodoo lady or whatever). Second, they can get a PC of the godbothering variety to perform the resurrection.
In either case, the rez occurs in the vicinity of the ghost, and not the corpse. If the player wants their stuff back, corpse retrieval is necessary.
If a player is not flagged as PK, they must then specifically grant another player permission to loot/drag their corpse. Such permission only lasts for the one instance of death as far as I am aware. If a player is PK, then any other PK player may loot to their heart's content.
The general etiquette on the mud is that casual slayings don't happen very often, and that PK's tend not to loot corpses that died of natural causes (ie, drowning, falling from high places, aggro mobs, etc...). When theft does occur in the game, it is often accompanied by a written receipt, which may often be used to get the item back in exchange for hard currency.
The witches have a spell that transforms an otherwise mundane object into a magical talisman as well as one that takes any talisman and binds it to the owner in such a way that nobody else can pick it up, much less run off with and use it.
Allaryin's personal experiences with corpse retrieval:
I was partied with a rather vapid witch one day and we were actually quite successful in hunting lions or something in the wilderness. Well, she was leading, and on our way back into town, she overshot the entrance and landed in a river.
She had swimming skill. I, at the time, did not.
By the time I realized what was happening, my body was at the bottom of said river, my spirit was floating above it, and my possessions were flowing downstream.
She called a friendly priest to come take care of my immaterial state while she stripped down and made several dives to drag up all of my possessions.
The moral of this story is that I now have swimming skill and am also now fully aware of my ability to cast a teleportation spell while holding my breath ;)
And now with the actual response...
Player corpses will eventually happen.
However, this is pending Acius' long-standing battle against the OOCland/death system. It will happen when it happens.
As far as looting player corpses? Well, my thought is that it would definately be nice to be able to mug other players, but there are some things that are so valuable as to render it completely unfair if players are allowed to steal them.
Thus, I anticipate some sort of dichotomy of items that are and are not soulbound (for lack of a better term). A good example of this would be Sora's ring. I don't mind players robbing him blind of his every last possession, but it'd be a real shame if a polar bear ate the ring.
There could likely be a fairly expensive magical ritual that binds the objects.
Again to my example of Discworld. When a player dies, their spirit is yanked out of the body and is able to float around and go 'Boo!' at people. They then have two options for receiving a rez. First, they can simply wander to the town's local resurrection provider (an NPC priest or voodoo lady or whatever). Second, they can get a PC of the godbothering variety to perform the resurrection.
In either case, the rez occurs in the vicinity of the ghost, and not the corpse. If the player wants their stuff back, corpse retrieval is necessary.
If a player is not flagged as PK, they must then specifically grant another player permission to loot/drag their corpse. Such permission only lasts for the one instance of death as far as I am aware. If a player is PK, then any other PK player may loot to their heart's content.
The general etiquette on the mud is that casual slayings don't happen very often, and that PK's tend not to loot corpses that died of natural causes (ie, drowning, falling from high places, aggro mobs, etc...). When theft does occur in the game, it is often accompanied by a written receipt, which may often be used to get the item back in exchange for hard currency.
The witches have a spell that transforms an otherwise mundane object into a magical talisman as well as one that takes any talisman and binds it to the owner in such a way that nobody else can pick it up, much less run off with and use it.
Allaryin's personal experiences with corpse retrieval:
I was partied with a rather vapid witch one day and we were actually quite successful in hunting lions or something in the wilderness. Well, she was leading, and on our way back into town, she overshot the entrance and landed in a river.
She had swimming skill. I, at the time, did not.
By the time I realized what was happening, my body was at the bottom of said river, my spirit was floating above it, and my possessions were flowing downstream.
She called a friendly priest to come take care of my immaterial state while she stripped down and made several dives to drag up all of my possessions.
The moral of this story is that I now have swimming skill and am also now fully aware of my ability to cast a teleportation spell while holding my breath ;)